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 ~The RK Censors Thread~

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anto_capone
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PostSubject: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:28 am

Feel free to post your various warnings from the idiots here.

Here is my latest:

Made a poll, had 2 options for yes, maybe, and no; and also one option just for if you like polls.

7 total choices; alls I said in the post was to have fun... Razz

Quote :
From: {Maine_Coon}
To: anto_capone
Posted: 27 Aug 2012 04:11
Subject: Death to Munster? Quote message
Dear Anto player,

I have removed the above poll from public forum on the basis that it could be seen as baiting. It is my view that it is redundant as there have been more than enough threads discussing the situation, regarding Munster, for your character, and everyone else's, to have formed an opinion to base policy and practice on.

Please bear the following rule in mind:

Quote:
Rule 3: Flaming, Harassment and Baiting

Passionate and emotional Role Play can be the most interesting and exciting. Real people with real feelings exist behind the Kingdom’s characters however and therefore there is a limit to what is allowed. Rule 3 defines what will be considered as excessive and actionable roleplay and out of character postings. This rule applies to all posts made on Renaissance Kingdoms forums.


A: Roleplay that reaches an excessive degree of harassment, insults, slander, flaming, uses vulgar language or is written for the express purpose of inciting anger or debasing another will be considered violation of Rule 3A.
B: Out of character insults, flames and harassment will not be tolerated under any circumstances and will be considered in violation of Rule 3B.
C: Insults which are not fully roleplayed are deemed to be directed toward another player rather than a character, thus out of character and subject to Rule 3B.
D: Bigotry is unacceptable. A players' real life race/ethnicity, sex/gender identity, age, religion/spirituality, sexual preference/orientation, nationality, socio-economic status, political affiliation, or disability may not be discussed and may not be ridiculed. Any posts or sections of posts of this nature will be considered in violation of Rule 3B.


Notes:

Posts which violate rule 3 will be moved out of sight.
Reference to real political or religious institutions or use of their images, language, phrases or slogans is forbidden, as is using terminology such as Internet, AIM, computer, America, Canada or Europe. Any post containing this language shall be considered out of character and subject to rule 3B.
Flaming is defined as: posting any material that is deliberately hostile, insulting, inflammatory, vulgar or socially charged for the purpose of inciting anger or debasing another player's out of character reputation and/or integrity.
Harassment is defined partially as (but not limited to): following a player character from thread to thread and insulting them instead of contributing to the thread; bringing up the same topic or argument within the same thread or across different threads whether or not it is related to the thread topic; continuing to post insulting responses once notified that the posts are over the line; threatening to call in the moderators in response to an insult*; making claims of fact relating to past actions that are unverifiable.
(*complaints about other players are to be sent by private message only to moderators)
Baiting is defined as posting material that is perceived to have the sole purpose of inciting a negative and/or violative response from another player, regardless of whether the original "baiting post" is in character or out of character.
Accusations of inflammatory content will be weighed on the basis of both content and any established history between the posters to determine their intent.




There is enough bickering and rehashing of old scores in the Irish forums as it is without exacerbating the situation further. Please consider this carefully before posting in future.

I am sure I do not need to add that further breaches may result in action leading to points and/or forum bans.

If you disagree with this action then please contact one of the forum mods {Badger}, {Cheetah} or {Camel} to ask for a review or complain.

Regards

MC

It was a very nice poll. I even had an option for "I just like voting in polls" and all. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:33 am

Quote :
From: anto_capone
To: {Maine_Coon}
Posted: 27 Aug 2012 06:32
Subject: Re: Death to Munster? Edit message
nice to talk to you,

ac

p.s.

bite me. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:55 am

It's a start Razz

Quote :
From: {Maine_Coon}
To: Kazimi
Posted: 16 Aug 2012 23:28
Subject: New map of Ireland Quote message
Dear Kazimi,

I have turned the new map of Ireland into a link as it is too large for forum. The map is 950px × 675px and the maximum size allowed for an image is 700px x 700px.

I hope it is possible to resize it or change the thumbnail to conform as it is very detailed and well rendered.

Regards

MC
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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:30 am

Taking bets on how long my post lasts in the Ireland Censor thread:

Quote :
I once went near a whole year playing RK and never using the RK forums, you'd be surprised how completely unnecessary the forums are here. Can always use my forum to vent if you want, RK censors have no power there!

But one thing:

Arwen_aisling wrote:
but they are impartial judges, who hold everyone to the same rules.

7 years in this game, I've never seen an 'impartial judge' on these forums! Maybe you can point them out for me? Very Happy

I don't even know what all this is about here, I just know from my experience that RK censors are very far from 'impartial judges'. Some censors may be better than others, but it is a sad truth that there are different standards for different players. I can list a veritable book of examples.

Only way they'd be impartial, is if they were 3rd party moderators who do not play the game- like many other games have. Smile

Arwen_aisling wrote:
instead you choose to behave like children, insulting everybody..

Oh wait, I guess you were just trolling. Carry on then I guess. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:44 am

Hummingbird tried to explain to me the other day that a player posting a section of the member list, with 2012 dates, post counts and such, from our wayfarers forum, on to the RK forum, as "evidence" (gotta love the "spying" abilities of these people), was in character and perfectly acceptable. Meanwhile, the first two, spread apart posts I made in the HH since arriving in Scotland, we're both moved to spam unncessesarily, and I've had posts edited to remove small, reasonable, easily identified, out of character, relevant comments. So I insult the local mods and tell them how bias they are, then get contacted by the head moderator and tell them the same thing, then get contacted by camel and tell him the same thing. Pack of tossers.
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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:50 am

And my post is gone lol

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:55 am

Wow PL is taking it to the censors, about time people stood up to their power play bullshit. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:40 am

Anto you've been around longer so maybe i'm wrong. But have the censors got a lot worse in the last year or is it only me starting to notice it more? I don't remember when I used the forums, them being that bad Question

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:49 am

Bottom line.
The censors are the gods of the forum and it is pointless to fight them.

They will keep what they want.

They will remove what they want.

And unless you can somehow work from the inside of that "organization" bitching and moaning will get you nothing.

It's pointless.
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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:13 pm

I haven't been around as long as Anto, but I think it HAS gotten worse. After being censored on the dumbest shit known to mankind, I sent them a very articulate and intelligent response, dressing them down a bit. They are probably still trying to understand what it meant. In layman's terms: they are idiots who take the game FAR to seriously and pretty much take the fun out of the forums. One of the only reasons I go to the forums is to RP--when that gets censored, I don't understand why I play this shit game anymore.
You fuckers, it is all your fault, why I am still here! Evil or Very Mad Laughing

So yea. RK Censors are trolls that have been given the keys to the backdoor.

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:22 pm

I ignore all censors and go straight to Badger Razz

I know some don't like him, but he and I seem to get on well,and I've never been one to talk to the peons when I know damn well things will get done talking to the top dog. It's amazing how less hassle I get when I say don't even respond to me I'm dicsussing it with you "boss"

Fitz, that isn't allowed on the forums, and Badger has said so. You should shoot him a PM and let him know it's being allowed. He took down the stuff in England when I raised hell about them trying to use this place as IC reasons to attack people
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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:10 pm

It has indeed gotten worse. The english world is small and the pool of people willing to take on mod duties is shrinking. So what you end up with are english uber-actives, whose main characters likely have strong views.

And there was a noticeable increase in their strong-arm tactics after the forums were opened.

From MC's pm to Anto:
Quote :
I have removed the above poll from public forum on the basis that it could be seen as baiting. It is my view that it is redundant as there have been more than enough threads discussing the situation, regarding Munster, for your character, and everyone else's, to have formed an opinion to base policy and practice on.
Well excuse the fuck out of me but since when is it the censor's job to decide when people have enough information to form an opinion? Thats blatant abuse right there.

And as to Daub's ban? I am absolutely astonished by the speed. If I question a post, I may get a reply in a couple hours, but its normally the next day. All well and good, censors are people too and have varying time-zones etc. I understand fully.

Not so with our posts. That thread was up less than an hour. I went in the tav, heard about the thread, posted, and came back to the tav and talked to Daub about the letter, saying it was going to get pulled. (There was a misunderstanding where he thought Forum PMs were fair game, like forum posts.) We both went back to the forum, he was going to edit out the letter, I was going to post as having been privately shown the letter. A whole bunch of people were reading the PL forum, the thread was gone already and we both had our notices.

Excuse me?

I told him I got the notice, he said he was having it out with MC then, that MC said he was going to be banned.

Huh? Not removed for review? Not sent to be voted on by the censors like the little process {Camel} is using to explain their system? Nope, apparently that is just a formality to validate the decision that MC made within minutes of pulling the thread. Impartial my ass.


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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:28 pm

Posted this in the censor thread, there is no reason to pull it but I know better than to not make a copy here.

Quote :
{Camel} wrote:
Every Moderator is expected to participate in these polls, not just the ones from that area, to make sure that they are unbiased and fair.

{Camel} wrote:
Moderators are all here to help, not to take sides, not for personal agendas, not for political reasons. Moderators are not placed in areas where their human skins reside or are active, nor do they get involved with the politics or factions in their areas. To be honest, they have neither the time nor the inclination to try to keep track of who is allied with whom, nor do they care.

Excuse me, but I'll say again the same thing I've said all those years ago:

What makes the procedure unbiased and fair? The RK world is not so big that a character like my own isn't known in other Countries. Time and again we have seen evidence to the contrary, that many censors vote according to their bias. The whole 'not being censor where your character lives' is an entirely flawed concept in my opinion, in that the RK world is a much smaller place.
There needs to be public accountability, not anonymity; because it is pretty obvious to many of us that the censors in RK are 'stacked'. We have a 50+ page thread on my forum showing literally hundreds of examples of what could be perceived as harassment by censors and/or special targeting and vendettas. We've had some fun with it; we know who many of the censors really are.
Yes, RK probably cannot afford Real Moderators, which would be hired 3rd party mods who would have no stake in the game. It's not that many of us do not appreciate the work done, or the attempt at fairness made; but we've long ago realized that these forums have become sort of a running joke. No offense intended, but it simply does not work as it is.

I am not trying to criticize nor argue; but rather trying to offer perspective is all. The reasoning behind the current outrage seems to be an ongoing occurrence: what is good for the goose is NOT good for the gander.

I myself have been victim of special targeting in the past, and I know how frustrating it can be to 'walk on eggshells' on these forums. I could say the same word or phrase that others use, and suddenly it is a bannable offense.

I know the system isn't perfect, and I know and respect that censors do make mistakes. However, we see many, many examples of clear biased against certain players and groups. What is appropriate for one person or group to post should be appropriate for all.

There is far too much baiting allowed here on these forums. It happens. It's just that it appears, at least to me, that in nearly all situations the censors do actually take a side. This is easily perceived to be a personal vendetta, and it undermines the entire censor system. All it takes is one rotten censor to ruin it all, and frankly, some of the censors are highly opinionated and polarizing figures.

I hope you guys can sort it out, best of luck. Have a good one! Smile

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 9:17 pm

RK censors can go fuck themselves. My least favorite thing in life is when someone so ridiculously incompetent and stupid is given a ridiculous amount of power over me in a setting, but would be insignificant anywhere else. I would compare it to TSA agents, who can ruin your day if you don't do every stupid bullshit thing they ask you to do. Outside the airport, what the hell are they worth? They're not exactly the crème de la crème of society. But in the airport, you are their bitch and have to listen to everything they tell you. It's literally the reason I take Amtrak anywhere on the east coast instead of flying.

Rk censors are basically the same thing. Just people who are petty and useless outside of RK, but are given ridiculous power inside of it. Think about it, they are not accountable to anyone. (well to their superiors, when was the last time the forum admin admitted a mod fucked up ? They wouldn't, they'll just cover up for each other's mistakes). You can't even criticize them in public. And they can easily ban you like what just happened to Daub. They are just people who compensate for their insignificance by abusing their power in a stupid little shitty game.

*if you are a TSA agent and got offended by this post, well go fuck yourself too.
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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Sun Sep 02, 2012 10:35 pm

Why can't you criticize censors? It must be a lack of self esteem.

"Because I said so" is not a valid argument. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:43 pm

I don't think that all the moderators are bad. If that goes against the general "I hate them" vibe, then tough really. I do disagree with some of the decisions made and have actively fought for a very long time to see things change. I hate to say it, but sometimes, the people who complain about the moderators being biased, etc., don't see the big picture. I have seen many instances where I have agreed that a moderating mistake has been made, but just as many instances where the person complaining truly is at fault and is now just sounding like a petulant child. Just like everything in life, there is no black and white, good and bad, just human beings trying their best - on both sides of the fence.

I am one of those "hated" moderators, and many times I have taken a break because the pressure has been too much for me, but I keep going back because deep down I want to help. I don't want to pick up on every little slip and I certainly am not on the look out for mistakes - I am more interested in helping people who are struggling and lately I seem to be the only voice of dissent in the moderator council, trying to steer away from things getting even stricter.

There are some mods who make me want to shake them until their teeth rattle, but there are also some mods who, like me, genuinely want to help.

Remember, when you generalise and say "all blah blahs are bleh bleh" you will always be wrong, because not all of them are what you say, no matter how hard you wish it to be so.

And Anto, you are right, "because I said so" is not a valid argument at all. I know that I have made mistakes as a mod and I have been chewed out by players for it. I have always gone back to them and admitted my mistake and also fixed it. Moderators are human and have bad days too - least I have learned from my mistakes Very Happy How many others can say the same?

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:53 pm

Bekah wrote:
And Anto, you are right, "because I said so" is not a valid argument at all. I know that I have made mistakes as a mod and I have been chewed out by players for it. I have always gone back to them and admitted my mistake and also fixed it. Moderators are human and have bad days too - least I have learned from my mistakes Very Happy How many others can say the same?

I've apologized to mods before. But when one group is constantly seeking you out and targeting you; it naturally makes you despise the whole group. That's just nature I guess.

The biggest step forward would be removing anonymity. The reason they are anon might be justifiable, but the cost is typical moderator 'internet tough guy syndrome'.

That said Bekah, keep fighting the good fight. Don't out yourself here, otherwise you'll just get booted out like the others. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:02 pm

anto_capone wrote:


The biggest step forward would be removing anonymity. The reason they are anon might be justifiable, but the cost is typical moderator 'internet tough guy syndrome'.


THIS! I wish this could be the focus of our "protest"

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:43 pm

'scratches his head'
So, 'Removing/Editing/Deleting' posts because a Mod dont like them is helping?
Now, that gives a whole new meaning to the word `help`.

Talk about using a sledge hammer to crack a peanut!

Dont quote the `Rules`!
Rules are a guide-line not a law.

Best if that `M_C` was sent back to Sussex forums.
Bet they were glad to be rid of him.
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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:46 pm

And for the record I don't hate the censors. I hate what they stand for.

They are simply typical secret thought police.

As much good as they do, or try to do; it is their job to disrupt information, spread propaganda, and maintain confidences/secrets.

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:16 pm

Bekah, I appreciate that there are some mods out there that are truly trying to help. But I will state right here and now that it can't be fixed.

The only thing that can be fixed are details, who edits what for what reason etc, however, that is not the crux of the problem. The crux of the problem is in perception and no matter how hard anyone tries, you or I cannot change people's perception. It all stems from the IC/OOC issue and has permeated every run-in with the opposition and the censors since this started.

- It is perceived by the opposition and by the censors that anything said by someone on the CA side is OOC.
- It is perceived by the opposition and by the censors that anything said by someone on the munster side is IC.

Even in the beginning when we would calmly and politely question posts, the verdict would, for the most part, come back as 'they were speaking IC'. In the case of one issue that was clearly a rule violation, it was ruled they were IC. And that was after I brought up a second point that the censor was nice enough to take back to the censor council again. The second try, I believe might have resulted in a small edit, but the post stood; they were perceived as IC. Go back and look at all the foul, vile things said by their side and the incessant name calling. You will find very little of that from our side. We generally just made threats about future IG actions. Since when is saying "I'm going to keep your mines and hang all your people." OOC? But the response "Hey pal, shove it up your arsepipe." fully IC?

Time and time again, it has been a common theme and at this point, nothing can be done change the situation.

On a personal note:
I have absolutely no idea how folks view Shanor. Have had her out there for 6-years next month, just never came up before. Even the numerous times her IG position has been overrun by NNGO, ONE and various and sundry other bad guys, she tried to always remain fairly reasonable about the situation. Might have gotten a little snippy, but she was never OOC angry or nasty. I personally don't see any change in her overall character now.

Recently, I have been told that "Even Shanor's rants smack of OOC". Seriously? More curious about when Shanor 'ranted' than the OOC perception, lol. (And I didn't hang around to ask, merely deleted another person that no longer has a place in my rl world. For the record, unlike Shanor, I don't own a large part of any shipping company, I do have feelings, and I ain't all that tough.) But really, if the perception runs so deep that Shanor, who hasn't even been that mean or vocal, has her posts viewed as OOC, things are so skewed against us that what is the point?

I can't fix Shanor because she isn't broken. But I also find it increasing difficult to have her live in a situation where she can't speak without having her words continually erased because a group of people point and say 'she is being ooc'. Daub is like a big bother to me and I love him dearly. Worse than anybody, I hate to see him go, but I understand his position fully. I probably won't kill Shanor but in reality, with the english speaking world so small and censors recruited from that pool, the 'label' will follow her. Where could she go and be assured she can speak freely?

I don't know anymore, I just don't know.



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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:53 pm

Has a censor ever been fired or released? I've never heard of it happening.

If anything, Daub should stick around; just to give them hell! These trolls and censors don't realize that once we're all gone from RK, the game is gonna go to hell pretty quickly. They can run out everyone they like, but in the end all they will have is an empty playground all to themselves. They won't find utopia when we're gone....

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:28 pm

It has always been a big problem distinguishing between OOC and IC. My view is that unless something is obviously aimed at the player (like criticising a person's spelling - which can only be OOC as the presumption is that the characters are talking to each other unless they specifically say they are writing a letter) then I take it as IC.

Where I think problems come to the fore (and I guess that I am in the minority here) is when things get heated, possibly refer to tavern convos, MSN and the like (none of which the mods can see) and there is no clear way to see it is IC. Like I said, I presume IC in the IC areas, but an exchange like:

"you suck"

"you suck more"

"Shut up"

"shan't"

could be anything lol! (Yes I am oversimplifying here). It is easier to see that things are IC if they are role played out, including a bit of scene setting and facial expression for example. I know that not everyone enjoys role playing as a story telling method and that there are many levels of writing skill too. All of this is taken into account, but there are times when sorting things out is a near to impossible task and it is easier to lock a thread than it is to sift through the exchanges. I know I once took eight hours trying to sort out a rapid exchange that had happened while I was asleep, and I got nasty letters for not stopping it sooner lol.

The way I see it, there is fault on both sides and a lot of frustration on both sides too. It is true, there needs to be a better system in place, but knowing how unwieldy the forums are, I really don't know what can be done to change it.

I think that the whole forums need a complete overhaul, that the stupid split into two forums should be removed and that Admins, Mods and players could have a better relationship. Human nature being what it is, however, I don't see a workable solution happening anytime soon. All I do is RP on my own in my own little thread, visit here and then read a book lol Razz I don't get involved with the whole tavern/MSN/facebook rubbish and I am happier for it.


And yes Anto, Mods have been removed for inappropriate behaviour.

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:40 pm

Bekah wrote:
And yes Anto, Mods have been removed for inappropriate behaviour.

Well, thats a comfort, small as it is because this all must have happen behind closed doors.

You see, the main issue is accountability. No one knows what goes on, so those with the best imaginations invent things. Secret people reading secret things, I mean the whole set up is designed to make the censors life hell. Its inconsistent.

I know I come across harsh, but that is because I mean to. I expect to be held accountable, and I know my words carry some weight simply because I've lasted this long. I am consistently questioning and critical when I am modded.

But I've also been wrong. When I am wrong, I admit it, I apologize, and I move on and learn from it. I can't say the same for a censor team who is inconsistent, never admits wrong, and never seems to learn.


I know how to fix it, but Celsius is not going to offer you guys salaries I don't think. It is an immediate mistake to have players with 'special mod powers' over other players. Anyone can see the logic in that.

So, barring Levan investing heavily into the game; is this what we are left to deal with? I prefer to strive for better. I still use and prefer this forum.

I think, it has to start somewhere. Someone has to take the first step, and by now we all realize it has to be the censors because none of us know who the hell is yelling at us. Small steps, over time, can reach long distances. It can be done within the current framework. But censors have to meet us halfway.

I understand and respect most of the censors, but I disagree on their methods. There needs to be a chance for compromise. When you spend 15 minutes, or an hour writing a post, only to find its been locked and moved and no one ever gets to read it you feel cheated. Out of your time, your effort, and your self respect. This alone is what needs to end, and to do so there needs to be effort made on behalf of the censors to show it.

Censors shouldn't have to read everything. They aren't police- they are firefighters. Firefighters do not patrol, they respond.
When a censor does respond, they need to treat the players involved less like suspects and more like victims. This is a common courtesy and respect: if your uncle gets too drunk and mouths off at the family x-mas party, you offer to help him by asking to take him home, knowing you are doing him and the family a favor as well. You don't lock him in the basement so he cannot be heard screaming and ranting.

What RK needs, that would really help, would be simple interaction. Not the Really Annoying kind, when some animal sits to listen in on your RP; but an actual forum/sub-forum where people can go to publicly complain, criticize, and argue their point of view (like we do here, now). A place to speak OOC with censors and perhaps admins to say 'Hey, why the hell did you move my topic'. This creates open precedents as a side-effect; but most importantly it give multiple people the chance to express their opinion. It gives flexibility and the chance for adaptation.

But in the end, its up to Levan. Is why I don't any longer blame the censors, but their shit-provider. I just wonder, how much can be done without him. I think a lot can be done with small and simple ideas. Smile


Thanks Bekah, really appreciate your POV. I apologize if I've ever been rude at your censor skin, I hope you realize I give the same amount of rope to everyone. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: ~The RK Censors Thread~   Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:31 am

A lot of sensible things have been said in this forum.
Criticism of (some ) Mods in RK has been said here also.
The question is, if what has been posted on this site was posted in RK forum(s) how long would it be there before being deleted?

Overall, I have found RK mods sensible but, as with any group with power, there are some who let it go to their heads.

I am a Mod in another game I play so I am aware of the danger of being too `heavy-handed` with the other players.

Mods are required to be unbiased and neutral in all dealings with the forums.
(Well, that is the theory.)
However, when we see PlayerA making OOC remarks and PlayerB replying IC but PlayerB censured for their remarks as being OOC and PlayerA remarks as being IC then you must question the bias of the Mod.

BUT.......any attempt to do so in RK may result in a ban from the forums.

It is a poor state of affairs when we have to resort to using an off-site and private forum to be able to speak freely.

As for tpb Daub....I suggest that anyone who can, pester him to remain in the game.
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