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 Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.

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Corinna
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:46 am

Lance ... sorry to hear that you aren't a censor anymore ... I was one of the ones that recommended you as a censor, totally based on how you handled the Marzy thing ... as to swallow's letter, the only time I saw ones like that go out were when censors hadn't been in to check for a while and hadn't responded to mails - did you ever mail her back and ask wtf?


Marzy was a whole different issue .. we tried mentoring her, writing to her, threatening her, banning her - sort of like the night of the undead where the zombies kept ressurrecting - no backing from Celsius on permabanning unfortunately - that was one of the rare cases I would have loved to have seen it used

Edwin, I have no intentions on getting into a pissing contest with a skunk

I am here to RP, bottomline - funny thing is that was why I am part of RK - politics, war, reflecting IG actions in storylines, travelling, meeting new people, and telling storys - I have said my piece on how the censors functioned when I was part of the team, and tried to present some of the changes that we made in the 4 years that I worked with them in response to the complaints received

there are good and bad stories about how situations get handled - the funny part is that it is only ever the bad stories that come out in these piss and moan sessions

I guess if that is what makes people feel better ... meh
I've got better things to do with my time



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Elois
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:50 am

Marzena was Nickyl before, in England. She was permabanned before, as one of the Keggers. It might still be in LJS's old posts. So even permaban isn't permanent, it seems.

RK is just one big dysfunctional social experiment, I think.

ETA, yeah, the permaban is still in archives.
Quote :
26+ objectionable posts = permanent ban
Fut 32 VIOLATIONS
King_Nothing / Sabin_Michael 39 + VIOLATIONS
nickyl 48 + VIOLATIONS
rohannon 31 + VIOLATIONS
Spellfire 31+ VIOLATIONS
TaintedX 29+ VIOLATIONS
Sinthas 31+ VIOLATIONS

One could say she has a new name, so she's a different character, but she's the same, and she's flaunted her other account names throughout Babel.

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Edwin
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:05 pm

Corinna wrote:
Edwin, I have no intentions on getting into a pissing contest with a skunk

No? Neutral Oh I'm sorry. I didn't mean to upset you. I'd hate to see a grown male whale cry...

Quote :

I am here to RP, bottomline - funny thing is that was why I am part of RK - politics, war, reflecting IG actions in storylines, travelling, meeting new people, and telling storys - I have said my piece on how the censors functioned when I was part of the team, and tried to present some of the changes that we made in the 4 years that I worked with them in response to the complaints received

there are good and bad stories about how situations get handled - the funny part is that it is only ever the bad stories that come out in these piss and moan sessions

I guess if that is what makes people feel better ... meh
I've got better things to do with my time




Why? Are official forums no good for RP anymore? Rolling Eyes How about you read the title above and replace Wombat with Gopher? Rolling Eyes

To be perfectly clear with anyone, there are censors out there I'd welcome here with best regards. But I just hate fake lying twats coming here and proclaiming how good they were throughout their censor terms, admitting to abusing the power in one sentence and then claiming they're perfectly clear in the other.
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Corinna
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:11 pm

permaban was made impossible by LJS about the time Nickyl appeared back on the forums - there was a general amnesty granted for all of the Keggers ... most of the Keggers returned under different guises, and settled into the RK community without a ripple

Nickyl did not - she started in with her sexual behaviours right offthe bat and was hit by 2 or 3 bans - LJS gave us an injunction that Nickyl could not be pemanently banned from the game - if her behaviour got out of control, we could issue bans to her, but she had the right to return when the bans were up

she also created new characters as quickly as she was banned - usually within about 10 minutes of the ban being issued - many of them were found and eradicated before she got onto the forums with them, but some slipped through

then she started killing off characters before she would get a major ban, and pop up with new ones elsewhere - once we found her, she would claim that she had reformed her ways and we would get another notice from LJS to stop harrassing her

short of banning her ISP, which contained a lot of other active RK players, there wasn't a lot we could do other than try and work with her

you are right about the social experiment ... sees to attract a lot of borderline personalities, and even some truly psychotic ones ... we all get something from RK and RP ... some just take different, less socially acceptable things from it than others

conversations with the people behind Malachia, Nickyl, TaintedX, Algernon, Prince John, Melora and various other characters could truly be a bizarre experience

mind you I don't make any claims for being rational either lol - I build and drive stock cars, demo cars, and mud trucks, love shooting things and writing strange stories with possibly hundreds of other people online ...

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Edrahil
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:35 pm

Corinna wrote:


used it on a adult dating/chat site - this was the second pic taken - the original of the avvy isn't online anywhere



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_Melissa.
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:46 pm

Corinna wrote:
Nickyl did not - she started in with her sexual behaviours right offthe bat and was hit by 2 or 3 bans - LJS gave us an injunction that Nickyl could not be pemanently banned from the game - if her behaviour got out of control, we could issue bans to her, but she had the right to return when the bans were up

you are right about the social experiment ... sees to attract a lot of borderline personalities, and even some truly psychotic ones ... we all get something from RK and RP ... some just take different, less socially acceptable things from it than others

conversations with the people behind Malachia, Nickyl, TaintedX, Algernon, Prince John, Melora and various other characters could truly be a bizarre experience
Been reading this all, mainly as it is entertaining though... Interesting to hear a different view but I see double standards, which are hypocritical above and from the past points of discussion.

If you do get bullied, meh it is only because people will regurgitate points of your own behaviour back at you. Nope, am not saying that I'm perfect or normal either. This just gave me a whole new light of thought.

Edit: Btw am not saying that all censors are unfavourable. I would say quite a few, besides some people here are censors or have been, they're fine and I would respect them. Players in general can be cool despite what side they play but like I said above, now I dunno what to say, quite shocking rationale.
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Edwin
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:00 pm

Edrahil wrote:
Corinna wrote:


used it on a adult dating/chat site - this was the second pic taken - the original of the avvy isn't online anywhere




First time ever the Campbells talk sense Smile

My click finger will rot, but plussed... Smile
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Corinna
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:09 pm

what bothers me the most is when people start pissing and moaning without having any idea about what is happening on the other side of the fence, and laying blame rather than facing up to the fact that they may have broke the rules

case in point - thought I had edited my pic to where it would pass on these boards lol - apparently not, so reedited and reposted Very Happy no point going off on the mods for unnecesary censorship ... just modified what I did to accomodate the rules here




bullies can only have power over you if you let them - likewise crap written online by people that don't know the person they are slagging off really is a waste of time and energy

makes more sense to hit ignore
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Edwin
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:13 pm

Corinna wrote:
what bothers me the most is when people start pissing and moaning without having any idea about what is happening on the other side of the fence, and laying blame rather than facing up to the fact that they may have broke the rules

Yeah I admit - I compared Amelia to a lizard.

3 months ban. Totally deserved it.

And you're still retarded.
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:16 pm

Ok, going to speak up here for the first time in ages.

First: I think a lot of what Corinna says is suspect. There are bits I know to be untrue and other bits I question. I'm not quite sure what she's after by coming here, honestly. What do you hope to gain out of this discussion, Corinna? If you're looking for some sort of way to educate or achieve a more moderate tone, perhaps complete honesty would be better. If you're simply misremembering how things work, then my apologies, but I'm prone to being suspicious after some of the contacts I've had with RK censors.

Second: one of the reasons I abandoned this discussion was because it felt too much like it was turning into a witch hunt. I started this because I was frustrated over specific inconsistencies and unfair/random/overly rigid applications of the forum rules in Ireland. That doesn't mean I think all censors are bad. As I've said before, I think the censorship system in RK is so huge and broken that at this point, the best thing that could be done is to scrap it and start over again. This won't happen of course, any more than the game admins will deal with Spring's clones.

And finally: c'mon guys. Rolling Eyes Grow a pair. Boobs never killed anyone, whether you like that particular set or not. The remarks about Corinna's rack really just look like you guys taking cheap shots at someone because she's a censor. Lighten up. Respond to her points.
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Corinna
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:35 pm

Quote :
If you're looking for some sort of way to educate or achieve a more moderate tone, perhaps complete honesty would be better. If you're simply misremembering how things work, then my apologies, but I'm prone to being suspicious after some of the contacts I've had with RK censors.

hmmm as you have said the censor system is huge ... and can be prone to problems ... what I have said here is exactly how the areas that I have worked in are run - both when I was a junior, and as a head censor (no misremebering lol) - the people behind Badger, Swallow, Wombat, and most of the other censors I have worked with have made a huge effort to try and level the playing field ... when we started working as censors, there was no accountability, very little in the way of training, and very evident bias

over the past 4 years that system was gradually scrapped, and the current reorganized system put into place .. is it perfect? absolutely not, but there are people working to try and improve it

participation in those forums can be as spotty as it is in many of the main areas - many censors accept their appointment, then don't follow through with training, or keeping the checks up in their areas, or taking part in the discussions - as an hc, if I noticed someone consistently abstaining from votes, or not providing feedback in discussions, I went out of my way to try and engage them

one of my strong beliefs is that if change is wanted or needed, the people that are affected by the current rules need to be involved in that change - why not have a constructive discussion about what would improve the censor system in RK, and then invite Badger or Swallow to come and be part of it? The recent forum changes will give an opportunity to readjust the censors again - constructive feedback (not pissing and moaning) from the ones that dislike the current system the most would be useful

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Likaios
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:39 pm

Part of my disgust with the entire situation is that I've tried over the past year or year and half to engage Wombat, Anteater, and Badger in the sort of constructive conversation you describe. In each case, my thoughts have been disregarded or dismissed. That doesn't really leave a lot more room for discussion. So at this point, I just say everything I have to say publicly, on the RK forum, and stand ready for the ban that I expect to accompany it. Oddly, I have not yet received a point for publicly challenging the censor council. This is just bizarre given that I was awarded a point about a year ago for making a joke about hating the admins for drawing me into a political discussion. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:43 pm

how would you suggest fixing the system? I would really like to know, and unfortunately I haven't been part of those convos lol nor can I see Ireland at present



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Edrahil
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:44 pm

Eradicate the entire zoo. That'd be a start.
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Elois
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 1:58 pm

All Celcius games should be shut down for 1 month. By that 1 month, all the harassed will be calmer and all the truly nuts will have broken their computers in rage or worse.

Oh and those who are in council for 6 consecutive terms or mayor for 12 should have to reroll as a new char in another county/country. The whole Kingship thing is stupid because we just wind up voting in whoever we think is the most harmless. County, town level gov is where there's issues.

But by that one month passing, the withdrawal symptoms and interest will have passed; most people will have found a new, non-shitty game they'd enjoy better.
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_Melissa.
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:43 pm

Kaireth wrote:
And finally: c'mon guys. Rolling Eyes Grow a pair. Boobs never killed anyone, whether you like that particular set or not. The remarks about Corinna's rack really just look like you guys taking cheap shots at someone because she's a censor. Lighten up. Respond to her points.
Well, I didn't quite understand the purpose of someone who is/ was a censor coming here and showing people their bits, don't think anyone said hey show me them or asked about details on personal cybersex life etc. I think the situation would be quite different if for e.g. say it was Marzena.

Btw I'm straight but fairly comfy with my sexuality and seeing nudity in an artistic sense, not for sexual purposes though or acting promiscuous about it. Unless I quite fancied someone then wouldn't be interested in seeing it. I wouldn't really care if it was someone I knew's bits that I saw, like relatives or friends, pretty used to it as I went to a girl's school and almost all my relatives are female. I'm really pro gay, some of my friends are gay/ bi. If I wanted to discuss sex life talk to friends about it, if I wanted to learn or see some more about sex then I can stroll around Red Light District with a straight faced mature expression. Not in front of kids though, also wouldn't wanna see something unsightly... Heck I can act lesbian for pure shits and giggles if I really was up for freaking people out for fun. Are there any male fit censors, if so can they only post some topless pics up lulz? Razz Eh on the otherhand can just go to an Abercrombie store or the beach Embarassed Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:45 pm

Quote :
ok now i need to see full face. and hair. sorry Corinna its probably the cropping fault.

pic was posted in response to Dev's comment - probably should get raked over the coals for taking the convo off topic

so ... back to the topic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here's the deal

I will speak to Badger - willing to bet that if we have a good discussion and come up with some plausible ideas he will come and listen



Topic - how can the censor system for the forum be improved


censors - not the game - Celsius doesn't listen to his suggestions any more than they listen to the rest of us

so sorry Elois, can't get them to shut anything down or make those kind of changes - also scrapping the whole system wouldnt be on the table


............................................................

How do you propose that censors are chosen and trained to ensure fairness?


What method of enforcing the forum rules do you propose the censors use?


Are there changes that can make the rules more understandable? (NOTE most of the forum rules cannot be scrapped)






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Likaios
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:09 pm

LOL, but Celsius isn't going to do any of that cause it will cost them donations. Whatever changes might be made, they have to be made in a way that will not affect the company's income. If it affects their bottom line, they just won't do it, even if long term it might be better for the game and community and company.

In many ways, now is a perfect time to restructure the censor council, with the closures currently happening in the English speaking kingdoms. First, I would establish some hard, fast rules for the censor council on what their duties and the scope of their responsibilities are:

1. Censors should always be able to view all players and issues in their areas objectively. If they are having an emotional reaction beyond being frustrated with the work at times when it is especially demanding, they need to be reassigned, put on leave, or let go.

2. Censors are not there to set the world of the roleplay, only to insure a safe forum environment for all players over the age of 13. It is not appropriate for censors to determine something is not period appropriate. (This should be left to the thread's originator.) It is not up to censors to determine what is fantasy. (Again, up to the thread's creator. RP that is light or silly should not be automatically determined to be OOC based on the tone only.

3. OOC threads don't need to be shut down or moved every time either. This is a game community and sometimes communities can best be built with reasonable OOC discussions. As long as forum rules are being respected, OOC threads in any town, county, or country should be permitted.

4. Censors should apply rules evenly between all towns, counties, and countries. For instance-- outlawing a spam thread in one country but not another is inappropriate. (For that matter, I would argue that outlawing a spam thread at all is inappropriate because it's not hurting anyone or violating forum rules.)

5. While this is very difficult to determine, censors should use their best judgment to try to determine the intent of a post before warning or polling for harassment, flaming, and baiting violations. Some RP may be hostile; this doesn't automatically have to lead to a point or locking the thread. One of the best ways to try to determine this is by making a sincere effort to talk with the players in question before moving to a poll. I firmly believe that if a player has not had a warning and/or discussion with a censor regarding a possible flaming/baiting violation in the past two months, a warning is merited before a poll. Unless we're talking about Marzy or someone like her, of course. Laughing Incorrigibles are what they are, but they quickly become apparent with the pattern of their behavior. And they rarely take two month breaks.

6. Censors need to understand that when there are tensions in their area, often a light touch will be more productive than cracking down. As long as forum rules are being respected, leaving some valves for players to release their frustration (IC and OOC) can help the entire community. This includes criticism of the censors and game admins as appropriate. IE-- "Why the hell are they doing this when they still haven't coded disease?" should be okay. "Go die in a fucking fire you bitch Choup, I've got your address and I'm using it" is not. Cracking down is likely to produce an even stronger reaction though. By cracking down, I mean a heavy visible censor presence in many threads before there is much sign of a problem, locking lots of threads before they have come to rule violations, outlawing many types of discussions entirely, and expanding the rules frequently to try to squash the problems.

If I could do things exactly as I think they should be done, I'd go country by country, one at a time. (I say all this assuming I'd be working as an admin, essentially.) Scotland might be the easiest place to start as it's smallest with Ayr closed and only two counties. I would start by reviewing the Scottish HC or HC's and assessing their fitness for the job in light of the guidelines I sketched out above. If I wasn't completely sure the HC was capable of doing the job as I've described, I would either demote them so they had a chance to learn a new way of doing things under another HC, or remove them from the censor council entirely if I believed that HC to be too rigid to adapt to a less harsh system of censorship. Once an HC was in place, I would work release every censor in that area from their duties and work on reviewing them one by one to decide if they were active enough and able enough to adjust to the new system to be retained. If they were retained, I would issue them a new identity and probably plan to rotate them to a new assignment. (I would also issue HC's a new identity unless there was a player petition to keep someone in particular.) Basically-- keep only the best of the best, recruit more new censors than I think we actually need cause some won't be retained for one reason or another, and move around everyone who is kept on to a new assignment.

With the consolidations happening, I think each county needs an HC. One HC per county should be plenty, with one floating to fill in where needed for leaves or elections. After all, we're hoping the consolidations will lead to more activity. We could have a chief for each country above them in the chain, then admins such as Badger.

Now, cause I was writing away while Corinna was posting, my replies to her specific questions.... Razz

Choose censors based on activity and ability to separate from the game. People who seem to be emotionally involved are bad choices. Also look for people who seem to be flexible, creative problem solvers. A rigid by-the-book sort of thinker is likely to struggle in this role and in this sort of environment because their first impulse will be to create more and more rules and restrictions when there is a problem. Some of the problems in these games are just cyclical and censors have to realize that. Periodically every area will have a hellish few months where things are especially tense and wound up. Shift staff as needed to avoid burn out when this happens, apply the rules evenly, and wait it out. It will settle down again.

I think I pretty much outlined this already, but for enforcing rules-- start with private or public discussion as appropriate. Educate about the rules where needed. This has to be a give and take, it can't just be sending mails with the rules. People might honestly not understand how their posting is a problem. Censors need to also be willing to admit they made a mistake sometimes in the course of this, and apologize as needed. Apology is good for the soul, it won't actually kill anyone. Razz

Also, look at abbreviating the rules. I really like the list of rules in SK much better. It's more concise and covers everything that is really important. Grabbed it for you quick in case you're not familiar with it:

SK wrote:

Shogun Kingdoms Major Rules

Rule 1: Offensive Content

Offensive content, either written or in images, is prohibited on the forums, both in private and public view. Offensive content includes sexual content, violence and profanity. Any post or private message, whether in character or out of character, that contains sexual content, violence or profanity will be considered in violation of Rule 1.

Notes:

* Characters in role play may hug, kiss, and touch each other in areas not generally covered by a swimsuit. Any actions beyond this may be considered in violation of Rule 1. You are expected to “fade the scene” or “close the door” to the public on any other intimacy. If you are not sure, then your actions are probably going too far.
* While role playing battles and other period appropriate activities may involve some degree of violence, graphic descriptions or pictures will be
considered in violation of Rule 1. Again, if you are not sure, then your actions are probably going too far.
* Conflict in role play may involve passionate interactions, but profanities may not be used. Be creative and use another way to express your character's feelings. And a third time, if you are not sure, then your choice of words is probably going too far. The use of *** or acronyms to disguise profanities is not allowed.
* Rule 1 applies to all graphics and words, including the ones used for avatars, banners and signatures. Graphics may not display any of the following: nipples, genitalia, full frontal or rear nudity.
* Posting links to any sites which violate any part of Rule 1 will be considered a violation of Rule 1.



Rule 2: Flaming, Harassment and Baiting

Passionate and emotional Role Play can be the most interesting and exciting. This is to be encouraged and nurtured by players and censors alike. It must be remembered that real people with real feelings exist behind the Kingdom’s characters and therefore there is a limit to what can, should, and will be allowed. Rule 2, in tandem with the Roleplay Moderation protocols, defines what will be considered as excessive and actionable roleplay and out of character postings. This rule applies to all posts made on the Shogun Kingdoms forums.

1. Roleplay that reaches an excessive degree of harassment, insults, slander, flaming, uses vulgar language or is written for the express purpose of inciting anger or debasing another will be considered violation of Rule 2A.
2. Out of character insults, flames and harassment will not be tolerated under any circumstances and will be considered in violation of Rule 2B.
3. Bigotry is unacceptable. A players' real life race/ethnicity, sex/gender identity, age, religion/spirituality, sexual preference/orientation, nationality, socio-economic status, political affiliation, or disability may not be discussed and may not be ridiculed. Any posts or sections of posts of this nature will be considered in violation of Rule 2C.



Notes:

1. Flaming is defined as: posting any material that is deliberately hostile, insulting, inflammatory, vulgar or socially charged for the purpose of inciting anger or debasing another player's out of character reputation and/or integrity.
2. Harassment is defined partially as (but not limited to): following a player character from thread to thread and insulting them instead of contributing to the thread; bringing up the same topic or argument within the same thread or across different threads whether or not it is related to the thread topic; continuing to post insulting responses once notified that the posts are over the line; threatening to call in the censors in response to an insult*; making claims of fact relating to past actions that are unverifiable.
(*Complaints about other players are to be sent by private message only to censors.)
3. Baiting is defined as posting material that is perceived to have the sole purpose of inciting a negative and/or violative response from another player, regardless of whether the original "baiting post" is in character or out of character.
4. Accusations of inflammatory content will be weighed on the basis of both content and any established history between the posters to determine their intent.



Shogun Kingdom Mini Rules

1. Language
Where possible, please use the English language. If you need to use another language please provide a translation at the bottom of your post.

2.
1. Advertising
Don't post anything of a commercial nature on the forum.
2. Spam
There is a time and a place for spam so please try not to clutter up threads with unnecessary posts.


3. Picture Restrictions
To reduce the need for vertical and horizontal scrolling on these forums, signature, banner, and picture sizes are restricted as follows:
* Signature banners may not exceed 600 pixels in width x 200 pixels in height but MAY include one line of text of no more than normal (12p) size.
* File size for signature banners or the total used for pictures within a signature banner may not exceed 200kb for either Static or animated banners.
* Text lines in signatures may not exceed 600 pixels in width.
* Pictures posted on this forum may not exceed 700 x 700 pixels. Multiple pictures may be placed vertically but total horizontal width must not exceed 700 pixels.
* Pictures and text used for signature banners for all masks and signed NPCs are subject to these same limitations.
If you have a banner that is too big you will be given 48 hours to alter it. Failure to do so will result in the banner being removed by Admin.

4. OOC Posts
Kuni's and Kori's are all IC forums. Any OOC comments found in them will be subject to an immediate edit.

5. Reproduction of Private Communications
1. No private mail may be reproduced for any reason without the authors permission. This includes all off-site communication, (eg MSN, IRC, etc) and IG mails.
2. Posts from inside the Kuni Private Council Chamber may not be reproduced without permission of the sitting Council. This is the only forum so protected.


6. Censor/Admin actions
If you disagree with the actions of a censor, please send them a polite mail. If your issue is unresolved, please use the ladder of complaints:
1. Local censor
2. Head Censor
3. Chief Censor
4. Forum Admin
The public debate, or discussion of censor or game admin decisions or actions is not permitted. Please use the Private Mail option.


Notes:Mini Rules are not nomally subject to penalty points. However, any OOC insults will be dealt with in accordance to Major Rule 2. Any player who persists in breaking the mini rules will be warned once and will then start to generate penalty points

NPC Rule
NPCs, whether 'signed and invited' or 'IG created' are not allowed to participate in politics. Politics has been defined as the following:

* Any Mayoral/County Council election campaign
* Any Mayoral/County Council discussion
* Any office (thread) held by a Mayor or County Councillor - such as the Public Prosecutor office.


NPCs are allowed to participate in RP's that involve political figures providing they have permission from the person who begins the RP and have their NPC named in the first post.

Any player found to be violating this will recieve an official warning. Any further violations will have points awarded

I would still adjust the OOC rule to say OOC posts in an IC thread will be edited or split and I'd lighten up on the not allowed to criticize censors or admin stuff.

Good luck with Badger. I've said a lot of this to him or Anteater in the past and pretty much gotten blown off. I doubt you'll have much more luck, but cheers for the attempt.

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ArcaneJill
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:59 pm

I'm going to chime in here... kind of on both sides of the debate so bear with me.

I was a censor for quite a while, and a HC for most of that time (Goldfish/Squid after the skin changes). I left about 2 years ago after I moved IRL and changed jobs; the new schedule was (and is) not conducive to the requirements of censoring.

As most of you know, my character exists IG now solely to add manpower to NNGO operations. I have not visited the forums in months. I also have been removed from censoring for 2 years or more, so my recollection is only of how the system used to work, not how it currently operates.

Part of the problem when I was an HC was that the new censors were simply thrown into the fray, with minimal training. A new censor would be given an animal skin, the forum rules, and assigned to an area to cover. They were then left to their own devices as their HC saw fit. Depending on the player themselves and the willingness of the HC to teach, the censor could then turn out good or bad - and once they got into their comfort zone it was very hard to break them of bad habits or over-censoring (as I found when censors from other areas were transferred into mine).

Another problem was that as people move about so often (especially now that towns are closing) we would end up with censors who seemed a little too biased. It is a rule that censors DO NOT censor in the areas they live in. But nothing is said about areas they used to live in. I myself was HC of Somerset at one time... the area in which ArcaneJill was born and lived for many months. I had a couple of players there who used to drive me completely nuts as a HC. I like to think that I tried to remain as impartial as possible and that for the most part I succeeded, but I'm sure there were times where the stress of censoring combined with my knowledge of these people as players from having lived there got the best of me.

The censors tend to take an "us vs. them" attitude. When I was a censor it was the same. Rarely will someone win an appeal because the case has already gone through a vote or discussion and what could new information or new light on the subject change?

There are some good things to the censors. Keep in mind that every censor is a real person, and a volunteer. Most of them are not bad people. Some of them are very good people and very fair-minded. Some censors are new to censoring and have not received much training - they are going to make mistakes.

So how to fix the system?

One thing I pushed for when I was an HC was a training system. I even wrote a guide on how to be a censor, which was promptly swallowed by the many many other threads in the censor forums. I still think an apprenticeship and a probationary period, followed by regular evaluations by SEVERAL HC's would be helpful. I know that when I was a censor, the only real way to get rid of someone who wasn't cutting it was wait until they just stopped checking in. There was no checks and balances.

Another thing that has brought this thread, and this forum into existence with it's emanating hatred of the censors is the rule of no public arguing with the censors. RK is the only game forum I've been on with that rule. Sure, you spam any forum with "Mod X sucks" and you're going to get a ban. But no public discussion between the players and censors other than feeding them RP-wise is going to lead to misunderstanding and hurt feelings. It fosters mistrust and that "us vs. them" attitude on both sides.

I know this is going to be TL;DR for most people. Oh well. The system is broken and has been. Unfortunately it's been broken in the interests of streamlining and time constraints. Fixing it would take a lot more time and effort and I don't know that the already over-worked censors have that kind of time and motivation.

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Likaios
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:06 pm

Not fixing it doesn't make it any better for anyone either though. Still, I agree with your assessment, Jill.

As far as training, I'd say start censors off in areas specifically designated to be training areas. Put HC's there that you know to be enthusiastic teachers and competent censors. General (minus Anteater) could work for this. I'm sure there must be a couple of still sleepy counties around the English speaking kingdoms that could be used as training zones.
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Telcara
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:59 pm

So Corinna is here to save us all...


I never understood why people over the age of 13 need to be protected like babies from naughty words and the like. The level of censorship in RK is harsh. It is as if players are considered too vulnerable and weak to survive seeing a word such as fuck, asshole, bitch. I'm amazed how we all survive a day out in the real world. Earplugs anyone..?
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_Melissa.
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:06 pm

Telcara wrote:
So Corinna is here to save us all...


I never understood why people over the age of 13 need to be protected like babies from naughty words and the like. The level of censorship in RK is harsh. It is as if players are considered too vulnerable and weak to survive seeing a word such as fuck, asshole, bitch. I'm amazed how we all survive a day out in the real world. Earplugs anyone..?
+'ed
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Sephrenia
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 5:16 pm

The unfortunate problem is that the public criticism of admins and censors is a ruling direct from admin, and they're not likely to change that given the levels of discontent they know exist. Which does actually somewhat suck. Public unconstructive criticism I can see a case for but constructive criticism just helps everyone.

I think the perception all censors are bad is really unfair in honesty. I was very hands off, I know other censors who are as well, and there ARE censors more openly on the players side. The ones I know just seem to get very frustrated and throw their hands up. In honesty, the censor forums do feel very stacked against players and very much biased and that's from the inside view.
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Telcara
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PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 6:37 pm

Sephrenia wrote:
In honesty, the censor forums do feel very stacked against players and very much biased and that's from the inside view.

Some posts I saw there made me shudder (1 year ago). Playing RK feels like playing who can keep up with the image of 'I don't give a damn' for the longest time wins. Its no surprise there's no delete account button, we would all hit it. But instead, we log out, perhaps retreat for a while, calm down/forget and come back repeat x100. Admin.. censors.. forums.. gameplay... urgh... The reason I keep playing is because I have no clue what to occupy my mind with instead - its so pathetic Laughing
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Lance
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RK Profession: Whiskey Distiller

PostSubject: Re: Welcome to Ireland, Wombat. Now go back where you came from.   Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:08 pm

Corinna wrote:
Lance ... sorry to hear that you aren't a censor anymore ... I was one of the ones that recommended you as a censor, totally based on how you handled the Marzy thing ... as to swallow's letter, the only time I saw ones like that go out were when censors hadn't been in to check for a while and hadn't responded to mails - did you ever mail her back and ask wtf?

Yeah, I'm usually pretty level headed . . . only the unfortunate few that get to see my angry Razz. I did message her back asking why and I know she got it, it's in my sent box. But I never got a reply, still being as nice as I am . . . I admit it might just be a coincidence, though I was active as a censor in the censor forum. Maybe with the consolidations they were just trimming down censors. The day after is still suspect in my mind and goes with a lot of what other people have said.

And it wasn't just Marzy, there have been others. Amelia being one, I got a warning for calling Torpedojoe "Topo" once in a completely civil discussion. I just feel people are overly sensitive. I can outwit them with logic and solid arguments and people get upset, have no good response, so go to the admins to get me to shut up. A case of the person who whines the loudest winning . . . and of course I never whine to the Censors about other people attacking me (not even Marzy, I was more then happy to fight her on the forums without Censor interference). Like I said maybe it's just easier to yell at the more laid back players like me that won't take it personally then telling the whiners to shove it and grow up.

I've also noticed that the younger players IRL are way more laid back then the older players. I don't think any of the people I've ever had IG issues with have been my age or younger always overly critical older people that I'm apparently ruining their "escape" and perfect fake life for . . . but that's a different discussion.

Not a big deal, I didn't complain about getting removed as a Censor . . . I'm sure people didn't even know I was one. Just felt the need to bring it up in this topic since we were talking about Censor abuse. I already stated I stayed out of most Censor discussions in the Censor forum because I felt uncomfortable with the punishments being laid down. Maybe I wasn't a "good" Censor and didn't fit the usual mold. *Shrugs* it's the past now . . . I'm happy to leave it there.
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